It’s
gone from hot topic to footnote in a matter of weeks. Mall magnate and
Wilmorite CEO Tom Wilmot’s proposal for an Indian-run casino in downtown
Rochester seems dead in the water.
First,
Governor George Pataki told the media he wasn’t even considering a Rochester
location. Then news came out of Albany that all land-claim settlement talks
between the Indian tribes and the state hit a dead end. Finally, just this past
weekend, the Democrat and Chronicle reported that the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe, which had been interested in Rochester,
is now eying the Catskills.
Sitting
at an interesting intersection among all this is nine-year Democratic County
Legislator Chris Wilmot. Not only is he a nephew of Tom Wilmot, he’s also an
investor in the Wilmorite subsidiary that’s trying to bring a casino to
downtown Rochester. And in his words, “there’s still some life” in the Casino
Rochester proposal.
In
a recent interview, Wilmot described his involvement in what he considers to be
an “amazing project.” He also expressed his concern over Rochester Mayor Bill
Johnson’s vocal opposition to not only the casino, but Wegmans’ proposal to
build a store on Elmwood Avenue. And that’s where we begin our edited
transcript.
Wilmot: When I first
entered public office, when I first ran in ’95, if I could point to any public
official who I would have considered a mentor or a visionary, it was certainly
Bill Johnson. In fact, one of the pivotal political moments of my life was in
early ’94 or ’95, when David Rusk, the [former] mayor of Albuquerque, New
Mexico, came and spoke at the Eisenhart Auditorium.
And
that’s where I became a believer in a metropolitan vision. That includes some
government consolidation, some consolidation of services in municipalities,
etc. So when I was sworn in in early ’96, if I could look to anyone to say
“there’s somebody who I’m shooting for, who has a vision, who I see as a
political ally,” it was Bill Johnson. Over the years, unfortunately, because of
the course Mayor Johnson has taken, my opinion has certainly changed, probably
most dramatically in the last six months to a year. And I’ve grown, like many
people in the community, concerned about the many aggressive stances he’s taken.
If
not the casino, then what? If not Wegmans on Elmwood, what are we going to do
with that monstrosity that just sits there mostly, if not entirely, empty. It’s
not an eyesore, but it’s indicative of urban decline. So this is about how my
perceptions of Mayor Johnson have changed over his tenure, and also about the
steady and precipitous decline of downtown Rochester, specifically East Main
Street between the Hyatt and Midtown, where I think we’ve seen the greatest
commercial carnage, if you will.
City: How do you think the city should respond to big private
development proposals like Wegmans and the casino?
Wilmot: Bill Johnson
has the right as mayor to support or oppose any project. But what struck me is
he was so vocal in his opposition to the casino proposal. Yet, either by
silence or by word and deed, he is supportive of VLTs [Video Lottery Terminals]
on the fast ferry. He was one of the creators of that vision to have a ferry. I
see some inconsistencies there which disturb me.
Frankly,
if the mayor or anyone else thinks they’re gonna try and do away with what they
consider to be vice in the city or county as it pertains to wagering or gaming,
then what about all the Lotto machines the state supplies for what seems like
every third corner store or mini mart? What about the Racino at Finger Lakes?
What about the Buffalo raceway? You can go on and on.
I
find it rather stunning and amazing to think there would be any other mayor at
this moment in American history who would so quickly and aggressively turn away
from a half-billion-dollar investment that’s all private money. Unlike the
Renaissance Square project, which has some merit but not a lot, the casino is
not dependent on tax money.
The
state is virtually bankrupt. The county, city, and the city school district are
all in real trouble. The City of Buffalo and the County of Erie are looking at
mergers. Is this the time to so quickly say no to something that, while it
certainly may cause some problems, is a half-a-billion dollar, 24-hour
entertainment complex? The casino brings a new entertainment venue that doesn’t
exist in Monroe County.
And
then this coupled with the mayor’s seemingly impulsive opposition to the
Wegmans on Elmwood…. I don’t know. This just doesn’t seem like the mayor I
remember.
City: Both of these projects really came down to some pretty heavy
location issues, particularly the casino. The fact that a sovereign nation
would occupy a slab of Main Street became an issue. I’m not sure the mayor ever
came out and said he was opposed to gambling per se.
Wilmot: That’s a good
point, but I’ll say two things about that: The sovereign nation thing is a red
herring. Right now those properties — the Sibley Building, which my family
owns, and Midtown — because there’s such little economic activity there and
because Sibley continues to lose tenants and Midtown has lost so many tenants
over the years, you’ve got to compare the minimum tax revenue that’s being
generated by these properties right now to the revenue the city would receive
through the pact.
People
say we’ll lose our taxing authority on that land. Yeah, true. But the pact that
would be signed by the tribe, the state, and the federal government would
mandate that, like Niagara Falls, the city would receive X percentage of the
“user fee” or whatever you want to call it. We’re talking probably, and I’m
guessing, $10 to $15 million that would go to the city. Ironically, that’s
almost the same amount that would close the city school district gap.
Secondly,
I work on the 10th floor of the Sibley Building. That area all the way to the
Hyatt Hotel is a complete economic disaster. It’s an embarrassment to the
community and to the region.
When
I was first there several years ago, I was working on a Sunday and I was taking
a break. I walked down Main Street. A very nice Japanese couple approached me
and asked me where they could buy a pack of gum. And it took me a long time to
come up with an answer. What an embarrassment.
Bruegger’s
just closed at Four Corners because there’s no business on the weekends. If I
could sum up my opinion of Main Street in one statement: If a McDonald’s or
Wendy’s can’t stay open on some street in America, you know that street is
finished.
The
majority of people on Main Street, unfortunately, have just enough money for
bus fare. The street is dominated by people who cannot engage in commerce,
unfortunately. And that’s not their fault. But because of poor city planning,
and saying no to half a billion dollars in investment, this is why Main Street
is dead.
I
don’t think Mayor Johnson is fully to blame for East Main Street. But his
recent attitude against development — frankly, by my family’s company, that
has been doing business in this community for 60 years, and the Wegmans family,
which is at least as successful as my family — I find it astounding.
City: You mention the city revenue that could come along with a
downtown casino. But a lot of that would be determined by whatever compact the
state enters with the Seneca-Cayugas, right?
Wilmot: Yes. But I’m not
privy to the intricacies of the negotiations. When I threw out the term “$10 or
$15 million,” that was actually based more on what Niagara Falls, New York, did
with Seneca-Niagara. So that’s a real ballpark, off-the-cuff remark.
In
terms of what the state and the city might get, I really have no idea. I just
don’t know.
City: How did you come to be an investor in the casino?
Wilmot: I knew my
uncle was forming a casino management and developing company. So I asked if I
could be an investor, and he said yes.
My
company, Endless Wave Productions LLC, owns a limited-partner share in the
entity that’s trying to build the casino downtown and some other places, too.
So I’m a limited-partner investor in the project.
City: Given the impasse the state has reached with the Indian
tribes over land claims, and given the fact that the governor said he wasn’t
even looking at Rochester as a site, isn’t this a dead issue?
Wilmot: I don’t agree.
I think the governor’s stance was almost like a cooling-off period. My understanding
is that the tribes’ legal actions against the state are still very much in
limbo. The tribes would like to settle. The state would like to settle.
It’s
ironic that after it was announced in the D&C that the casino was not going to happen here, a couple of days later a poll
comes out saying 51 percent of respondents would actually support a downtown
casino.
I’m
an investor. I’m not going to pretend I’m not biased here. But one of the
reasons I am an investor is because I’m a believer, like my grandfather and my
uncle, that to create jobs and make something economically viable, you have to
take risks. You have to think big.
I
work right there in that building. And I know that without some investment, the
future of that stretch of East Main Street is bleak. It’s easy for my liberal
Democrat friends to say no, no, no, casinos are a horrible idea. They have no
money to put on the table for any other idea, but they want somebody else to
come up with the money for something that’s more digestible to them. I find
that depressing and I find it naรฏve.
City:You represent a large portion of people
living in the city…
Wilmot: 26,000.
City: Some of those people certainly object to the casino. How
would you answer to their objections, given your role as county legislator and
any potential conflicts that would arise if a casino were to be built downtown?
Wilmot: As a county
legislator, I would never vote on a downtown casino, so there’s no direct
conflict of interest.
I’ve
never taken a poll of my district on this, so I’m not sure what people’s
feelings are. My sense is that if everybody is focused on gaming tables and
slot machines and social ills, it’s easy to see the casino as a bad thing. But
if you look at the whole thing, you see there’s a hotel attached to it. There
are restaurants and gift shops. There’s a performing arts space. And the kind
of performance space built there might not necessitate a Renaissance Square
project.
I
think the casino — because of the sovereignty, because you can bring in these
private dollars and taxpayers aren’t soaked like they would be for Renaissance
Square — is an amazing opportunity. That area is screaming out for something.
If it’s not going to be a casino, then what? Who’s got the money? Who’s got an
idea? A casino might even spin off some subsidiary businesses in that
neighborhood.
City: Let’s review some of the information passed along in the
Center for Governmental Research casino study commissioned by Wilmorite. You
talk about the casino bringing more than gaming downtown. You mentioned the
hotel and restaurants and entertainment. The study says all of that could harm
the hotels, nightclubs, and restaurants already there.
Wilmot: Competition in
a capitalistic society is competition. When Wegmans builds a store anywhere, is
Tops going to feel it? Of course.
Could
there be some negative impact on nearby venues? Nobody knows until the casino
opens. But the amounts of money are so staggering, for a community that’s
struggling badly, it doesn’t make sense to dismiss it. Is there some risk posed
to neighboring businesses? Yes, absolutely. But no one has an indefinite right
to operate a business unencumbered by competition.
City: The study also points to the risks of saturation, the fact
that we already have a number of casinos in the region.
Wilmot: The longer
Monroe County waits to do something like this, casinos will get closer and
closer. Then what?
Saturation
is certainly an issue. But I don’t think we’re even close to that yet. We have
730,000 people in this county. We have 1.1 million in the metro area. Lots of
those people would use a casino. Route 390 serves as a gateway to Geneseo,
Dansville, Corning. Some of them would go to Salamanca, but others would come
here, because we have more than a casino; we have a metropolitan area with a
lot of other activities to engage in.
City:Another question raised in the study: Will
people choose a Rochester casino for an overnight stay when we’re competing
with Casino Niagara and Turning Stone?
Wilmot: Turning Stone
is more of a resort. They have three hotels. You don’t have the same kind of
land availability in downtown Rochester, and you certainly don’t have room for
a golf course. Would it be a different kind of a resort? Absolutely. It would
be more of an urban resort.
But
I think there’s sufficient distance here. It would be different if there was a
casino similar to the proposal for downtown Rochester in Batavia or Geneseo or
Canandaigua. But we’re talking at least 110 miles to Turning Stone from
downtown Rochester and at least 85 or 90 to Niagara Falls, New York.
If
this were to happen, it’s unique enough that, for a number of years, the draw
would be substantial. I don’t know how many converts there’d be. I think people
who’ve been in the middle and unsure about the casino, many of them would be
won over.
I
think there would always be people opposed. But who’s ever proposed anything in
the history of humans that didn’t have vociferous and frequent opposition? The
most interesting projects go on to generate the most opposition.
I’m
all about keeping young people in Rochester. I’d like to create reasons for
people to stay. We’ve been losing left and right. We just lost Jillian’s. We
lost Empire Brewing. Brรผ replaced it, and that’s good. But there’s a number of
things that have closed, restaurants particularly. That’s partly due to the
recession, but, the fact is, our young people don’t stay around here.
Are
they gonna say “Hey, Rochester opened a casino; I’m definitely staying now”?
No. But it adds to the mix. It’s something interesting you won’t find in
downtown Syracuse, downtown Albany, downtown Erie, a lot of other places.
City: The mayor has expressed anger over the fact that your uncle
has been bankrolling the Seneca-Cayugas while a Wilmorite subsidiary, Rochwil,
owes the city close to $14 million in back taxes on the Sibley Building, which
it owns.
Wilmot: I’m gonna say
no comment. My understanding is that my uncle’s position is that Rochwil
doesn’t owe the city a dime. The city claims it owes about $14 million. I’ll be
very honest: I’m not in a position, for a lot of reasons, to comment on that. I
really don’t know.
Another
way to answer that might be: In these economically distressed sections,
especially East Main Street, the city is probably, from a number of properties,
receiving minimal tax revenue because there’s such little business.
Look
at Blue Cross-Blue Shield. Max Farash puts them 15 or so years ago into Gateway
Center. I toured that facility back then, and it was beautiful. And Blue Cross-Blue
Shield seemed happy there. But what do they do? They move three or four blocks
away and build a new building. They stay downtown, which is nice. But the fact
is, that whole strip has suffered miserably, and the city could be in a
position to reap a large amount of cash every year from an amazing project.
There’s
something called “opportunity cost,” too. What’s the cost of not pursuing
economically viable opportunities that are unique and different, that people in
the United States, and in New York even, seem to like? I was at Turning Stone,
and you know who’s there? I didn’t see low-income people. When I looked at
people’s clothing, at the cars they arrived in, you know what? These were
middle-class elderly or middle-aged people. People with disposable incomes who
were gaming.
Would
some people suffer from gaming? That happens everywhere. But it’s an
entertainment option for people who chose to use it.
What
about millions who would come to the city who are presently not coming? The
city suffers a financial shortfall every year. Like the city school district,
like the County of Monroe. And pretty soon that will start spreading to the
towns. We are in a fairly deep recession around here.
Is
the casino a savior in terms of economic development and jobs? Absolutely not.
However, what mayor, what city council in the US is saying no to a half-billion
dollars so quickly? We’re talking 2,000 permanent jobs and tons of construction
jobs to rehab these facilities. Something’s wrong here. Something’s wrong when
a guy like Bob Wegman, who has put his heart and soul into one of the best
businesses in the US, is getting a “no” from the mayor so quickly. Something
needs to be closely looked at.
I’m
a Democrat. But I’m about job creation.
City: But wouldn’t a lot of the casino jobs just be filled by
people with jobs elsewhere in the community?
Wilmot: I can’t
dispute that, but I will say this: Look and tool and die shops. Let’s say we
opened a new one. I can’t imagine a big giant uproar that says “Hey, wait.”
Would there be some displacement? Sure. But that creates another opening
somewhere else. Without serious population growth, that’s a decent issue to
raise. But I also think it’s a bit fallacious. It’s not specific to this
project. It’s true of any development.
City: The objection to the Elmwood Avenue Wegmans seemed to be
about location as well. Neighbors didn’t want it and that area isn’t zoned to
handle high-intensity commercial traffic.
Wilmot: The mayor is
privy to some things I’m not in terms of zoning and planning issues. But I’ve
lived here for 39 years. Elmwood Avenue is two lanes in that section. That road
has been repaired and updated within the last several years.
The
point to me, though, is that we’ve got this behemoth sitting there. To me, it’s
not ugly to look at, but it serves no purpose. No company, no governmental
entity is saying we can’t wait to put our offices in that building. When I
drive by it, nothing is going on there. There are no cars in the parking lot.
And I don’t see anyone else with the ability to raise the money to develop a
first-class operation and to open it. I don’t see anyone else proposing
anything for that site.
I
don’t want this community to become a community of naysayers. Just because
somebody else proposed it and for a second somebody else didn’t like it doesn’t
mean it’s a bad proposal. The fact is, there is support in different quarters
for these projects.
When
they expanded Wegmans in Pittsford, there was some outcry. I know this can’t be
a credo you always apply to development, but if not that proposal then what is
somebody else proposing? There’s a letter in CityNewspaper today
[with suggestions for uses for the Sibley Building]. Hey, I like some of those
ideas. But it’s like Cuba Gooding Jr. said: Show me the money. That can’t be
discounted. It’s desperately hard to raise money. It’s easy to talk about.
All
my uncle and others like [Rump Group Chairman and Jasco Tools CEO] Dutch
Summers have said is, “Let’s keep an open mind here. Let’s not be so dismissive
so quickly.” Many were dismissive of the fast ferry. Many are dismissive of the
new soccer stadium. I support both, actually. Things take time. Ideas need to
be fleshed out.
I
support what Wegmans is going to do at East Avenue and Winton. That’s my
neighborhood. I can walk there. Will it be disruptive? Will it tear down the
old Brighton Town Hall? I propose we incorporate that somehow into the
storefront, or create a new faรงade that looks almost identical to the old
Brighton Town Hall. There are ways to do things where you keep people happy
about the historical nature of the neighborhood.
The
casino project could be open to compromise on some design aspects. But again,
for a community that’s suffering, we don’t have the luxury to say, “Nah,
there’s a $4 billion proposal coming down the road we like better.” There’s no
$4 billion proposal. There’s this proposal. And the opportunity at some point
will pass. It hasn’t passed yet, I don’t think. There’s still some life here.
Others will decide, and I just hope they’ll keep an open mind.
This article appears in Aug 25-31, 2004.
