Jamie Manson’s efforts to bring about a more inclusive Catholic Church, one that includes women priests and same-sex marriage, have not endeared her to the church’s hierarchy.
But she said that she remains committed to Catholicism and of what she called Catholics’ “sacramental” view of the world.
“In the Catholic imagination, every experience we have, every person we encounter is capable of revealing God to us,” she said. “One of my messages is to take a look at where we find sacramental realities in our day to day lives.”
Manson received her master’s degree from Yale Divinity School and writes a weekly column, “Grace on the Margins,” for the National Catholic Reporter newspaper and website. She will give a lecture, “Envisioning an Inclusive Church,” at Nazareth College at 7 p.m. on Thursday, October 16, as part of the William H. Shannon Lecture Series.
During a recent interview, Mason said that Catholics are not as conservative as they are often portrayed. And she said that she’s concerned by the media’s rock star treatment of Pope Francis. The following is an edited version of that discussion.
CITY: Your lecture is titled “Envisioning an Inclusive Church.” What is your definition of inclusiveness?
Manson: My vision of an inclusive church has to include women priests, and honoring the fact that we can’t say who God calls and does not call to the priesthood.
It includes LGBT people by honoring their relationships with the same holiness, faithfulness, and importance as straight couples’. Even beyond that, we talk about serving the poor and the marginalized, but we need to bring them into our communities.
Some faith communities do ordain women and support marriage equality. Are Catholics too conservative for a modern world or are they misunderstood?
Catholics in the US are not that conservative. Poll after poll has shown that the majorities of Catholics believe in the ordination of women and believe in same-sex marriage.
A few years ago, when there was the controversy about contraception and the Affordable Care Act, it was revealed that 98 percent of Catholic women in this country have used contraception.
I don’t think the issue is that Catholics are that conservative. The problem is that the bishops and the hierarchy get very stuck on their teachings and don’t engage with people who disagree. There’s a very big divide between what Catholics in the pews are thinking about these issues and what the bishops are saying.
Many people commend the church for standing on its principles in the face of an increasingly permissive society. Is the conservative stance a refuge for some people?
Providing a refuge for people is one of the roles of religion and has historically been one of the roles of the Catholic Church.
If you think about the immigrants of the late 19th and 20th centuries, the church was a refuge for people coming from other countries, feeling lost, and discriminated against. They had foreign languages and foreign customs, and the church provided them with a comforting place.
But the church isn’t even willing to discuss the possibility that some teachings are not working. Then the church becomes a reactionary place — a place where people are afraid of change and afraid of progress.
There’s always a need for people involved with religious leadership to have humility, a certain level of self-doubt that allows them to say, “You know my theories — my teachings are very good and they’ve worked for years, but they have their limits. And I need to engage with people to see how well those teachings are being lived out on a human level.”
Why do you remain a Catholic?
I had a theology degree from a Catholic university, and I decided to go to Yale where there were 40 different kinds of Protestants. And when you go to a school like that, you work together, you eat together, and you learn about God together. You really get to understand the differences among Christian denominations.
And I realized that in the Catholic tradition, there’s this understanding of the sacramental view of the world. We believe that God created all things and all things that God created are good, so all creation is capable of revealing God to us. In the Catholic imagination, every experience we have, every person we encounter is capable of revealing God to us.
Not all Catholics see the world that way, and not all Protestants see the world differently. But there is something in the way Catholicism has been formulated and the way in which many Catholics do ministry, that recognizes that God is in the encounter — God is very much in the world. And that’s very meaningful for me.
Still, I’m a feminist. I believe in women’s equality. I believe women should be ordained. I’m gay and I’m in a same-sex relationship. So I am not particularly welcome inside the church’s walls.
So I’ve had to be very creative about how I understand what the church is, and I think there are a lot of people like me. And they’re not just gay and lesbian Catholics, and not just women feminists. There’s a lot of Catholics who don’t feel particularly disenfranchised, but still don’t feel at home in the Catholic Church because of some of these teachings.
One of my messages is recognizing that there is a church beyond the walls of the church. Jesus taught us that better than anybody. Jesus was always sharing meals with people, sometimes very marginalized and broken people.
There are two stories in the news recently that are somewhat related: We’re going back to war in the Middle East, and domestic violence. In many Middle Eastern countries, religious doctrine is frequently used by men to control women. The Catholic Church certainly isn’t ISIS, but is it fair to ask whether the church is also guilty of trying to control women?
I think that the church is guilty of perpetuating the idea that women are not equal to men, and are not of equal worth or value. If you look at the issue of ordination of women, in essence what the church says is the way that God designs male bodies and female bodies means that we are intended for different roles.
Unfortunately, that always ends up meaning that women are not called to lead. So women are relegated to roles that have to do with mothering, nurturing, and caretaking. And my point about women’s ordination is that it’s not just about making women priests; it’s about lifting up women to full equality.
There are a billion Catholics in the world and the Catholic Church has a presence in almost every country. Very few institutions can say that. And if an institution such as the Catholic Church were to say that women are fully equal, fully capable of leading, fully capable of empowerment, think of what kind of message that would send to patriarchal societies all over the world.
We know very well that women and children suffer disproportionally from poverty, violence, human trafficking, sex trafficking, and a lack of basic resources. And a lot of that has to do with this notion that women are not equal.
And if you don’t support women and gender equality, how can you condemn domestic violence?
That’s right. There’s a question there because ultimately these systems where women and men need each other and complement each other always boil down to women being subordinate to men. And that makes it really difficult to wage a strong argument against domestic violence.
You’re one of the few critics of Pope Francis. What aren’t the rest of us seeing, and why is he so incredibly popular?
I think that people are hungry for leadership of integrity in the Catholic Church. We are living in a time of such extreme distrust of authority, and in the Catholic Church it’s justified given all that’s happened with the sex abuse scandals. We’re looking for somebody who really lives the Gospels’ values.
Certainly, Pope Francis, through a lot of his words and a lot of the imagery, seems to be doing that. There’s extraordinary footage of him embracing the poor, embracing the marginalized. And for many that looks like what we have come to know about Jesus. And that’s all really important stuff.
But he’ll say we need a deeper theology of women, and then he’ll say that women are mothers and nurturers. He’ll say things like, “Who am I to judge gay people?” But then he’ll say that marriage is absolutely about one man and one woman.
I don’t see him ever ordaining women or marrying a same-sex couple. And my concern has been that media coverage of Pope Francis always gives us the hopeful sound bite, but there’s also a sentence that comes later that is not given to us.
This article appears in Oct 1-7, 2014.
This woman is not a Catholic, by any means. Ignoring the teachings of the church, or saying that the church must change doctrine to reflect the views of the secular society makes her a Protestant. Maybe not by declaration, but certainly by her actions.
Where in the New Testament does it say that a marriage can be between 2 women or 2 men? Who am I to judge gay people when we all fall short and we are all sinners. Just because we sin doesn’t mean that we should celebrate or agree with that sin.
Thank you, Jamie, for standing up out there. You inspire me!
It puzzles me that people fail to make the distinction between rules that were made to support a social order at one particular time, and principles. But conscious awareness is a funny thing, and we are funny critters. I suppose it helps if you’ve known discrimination personally. But you can’t even count on that. I don’t have any answers, only an understanding that one must persist. So, thank you for the inspiration. I really appreciate it.
I will close with some Winston Churchill.
First, a message to the Church: “To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.”
Then a few words on persistence: “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts,” and “Never, never, never give up.”
Finally, for fun: “If you’re going through hell, keep going.’
Thank you, Jamie, for speaking up and saying what so many Catholics believe but do not have the forum to say. I heard you speak at Call to Action in Sacramento and was so impressed by your words. Don’t give up. We need you to speak for us.
Sounds like Jamie needs to join another religion rather than stick with one she disagrees with. The Catholic Church is not a democracy, and no one makes you join it or remain in it. You are always free to go. I am a Catholic and I disagree with her views and resent her attempts to force her changes on doctrine.
I am amused by CINOs – Catholics In Name Only – particularly politicians like Andrew Cuomo. He likes to remind everyone he’s a Catholic, but he supports gay marriage, abortion and he lives with his girlfriend in her house. I expect he says he’s Catholic in an attempt to get votes but he certainly isn’t what you’d call a practicing Catholic. People like him should just be honest with themselves (and with the public). Quit claiming to be something you are not and stop proclaiming you are a member of a religion you do not agree with and don’t practice.
That the Catholic Church needs to change is obvious to all but the blinkered. Personally, I do not see acceptance of gay marriage, however, I do see the ordination of women. The institutional Church proclaims the equality of men and women, but when push comes to shove, does not practice it.
If the leaders of Church want to be taken seriously as moral teachers and leaders, hypocrisy is not the way to go.,
I’m curious why people who are not Catholic seem to have some interest in suggesting how the Catholic Church needs to change. What business is it of theirs?
Roman Catholics are not “anti-woman” as many people think. Modern feminism has led women to the belief that they don’t need men, that women can do anything men can do. I’m sorry but no they can’t. The church deeply reveres women; hence all the emphasis on Mary, Mother of God and so little focus on her spouse. Catholics believe in gender complementarianism: that men and women have distinct but equal roles to play in the world. Women can not do some things that men can do and vise versus. CINOs like Cuomo are unfortunately the vast majority of the Catholics in the US. Part of the problem is also the politically conservative leadership in the US Catholic Church. Prominent Republican Catholics like Rick Santorum, Newt Gingrich (twice divorced) and Marco Rubio believe and adhere to the anti-abortion tenet of their faith, but not the social teachings that require charity and help to the poor, protection of the natural environment and the Common Good, social justice, the right to a living wage and forming unions to protect the collective rights of workers, not to mention the prohibition on the death penalty; ALL of these are believe it or not, equally important and equally valuable tenets of Catholicism as being anti-abortion. Indeed in my view, to truly be “pro-life”, a Catholic has to support all of these, or they simply believe what Barney Frank said: Republicans believe life begins at conception and ends at birth. Yet when the hell has Santorum, Gingrich or Rubio protected the right to organize unions, fought for environmental protections, a living wage for the dignity of all workers and life in prison over state-sanctioned murder? I must have missed those speeches.
What blasphemy trying to enforce what is considered modern on the Catholic Church such gay marriage, birth control, and woman priests. I mean why should the Holiness of the church be brought down because a few people cry because a few dissenters want it their way whereas the church has been around for 2,000 years .
We are all sinners, but there are two types of sinners. Repentant Sinners, and Unrepentant Sinners. Jesus was very clear when he dined with and spent time with sinners “I do not condemn you, but go and SIN NO MORE”. He dined with sinners not to affirm them in their sin, but to mercifully and lovingly call them out of sin. Ms. Mason is promoting a Gospel contrary to Christ and therefore contrary to the Church. She may be a baptized Catholic, but cannot in any sense be considered a Catholic in Good Standing or a faithful Catholic. The Apostles warned us of deceivers like Ms. Mason who would preach a gospel contrary to Jesus Christ.
Christ is Inclusive in that he calls all sinners to repent, and believe the good news. The key is we need to repent to be healed. Homosexual acts are by their very nature sinful. Anyone who preaches differently is opposing Christ and his Holy Church! The only ‘Church inside a Church’ which Ms. Mason is promoting, is akin to Judas inside the 12. All the 12 apostles were sinners, but only one betrayed our Lord. Betrayal and unfaithfulness is what Ms. Mason is preaching.
I hope the synod of bishops will consider the church as a family, and recognize that our patriarchal family structure is becoming an obstacle to evangelization as we enter the transition to a post-patriarchal society. Hierarchy is not the problem, and the church must remain apostolic; patriarchy is the problem, and the exclusively male hierarchy is becoming stale as a symbol of the Christ-Church mystery.
In this regard, St. John Paul II’s Theology of the Body (TOB) may provide a solid basis for solving the most pressing issues of human sexuality, both in families and in the Church as the family of God, including the ordination of women to the priesthood in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. The TOB endorses neither radical patriarchy nor radical feminism, and provides a vision of marriage, and gender relations in general, that can be summarized as unity in diversity, equality in mutuality, individuality in community.
Doctrinally, nothing essential (dogmatic) of the Catholic faith would have to change in order to ordain women to the priesthood and the episcopate. The TOB confirms that there is one (embodied) human nature, shows that men and women equally share in human personhood, and makes clear that the human body, male and female, is what makes our Lord Jesus Christ visible as an incarnate divine Person.
What is needed is “simply” to clarify our sacramental theology to separate patriarchal ideology from revealed truth. With all due respect and sensitivity for those who are heavily invested in the patriarchal order of things, this is a clarification that is possible and urgently needed in the church of the 21st century.
Jesus never identified himself as a patriarch. The Holy Family was a not a patriarchy. The Trinity is not a patriarchy. The spousal, sacramental love of Christ for the church is not intrinsically patriarchal (as the TOB exegesis of Ephesians 5 abundantly shows), and Jesus Christ is head of the church because he is a divine Person and our Redeemer, not because he is a human male.
To act “in persona Christ capitis” means to act in place of a divine Person. Neither men nor women are divine persons. Any baptized human person, male or female, can be ordained to act “in persona Christ capitis.” All ministries, including ordained ministries, should be gift-based, not gender-based.
The exclusively male priesthood is a choice, not a dogma (CIC 1024, CCC 1598). The church does have the authority (the power of the keys) to ordain women as soon as the Pope, as the successor of Peter, decides it would be for the glory of God and the good of souls.
Isn’t CIC 1024 an artificial contraceptive of female priestly vocations?
Why should the hierarchical church be exempted from practicing Humanae Vitae?
How can we preach the gospel of life if we choose to prevent female priestly vocations?
The patriarchal age is passing, but the deposit of faith is inexhaustible. Let us pray that all the Christian churches can discern the difference between patriarchal ideology and revealed truth, and act accordingly.
Dominus vobiscum,
Luis